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For Those in Accounting Programs at University

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Waterloo AFM is an excellent program, no doubt, but there is very little business content. This concerns me.

I am choosing between QC and AFM-PA, g93 is choosing between AFM-PA and Laurier, and I'm sure others are doing the same.

For those in AFM- did the lack of business worry you?

For those at other schools- is this one of the reasons why you chose your school? Why you didn't choose AFM if it applies to you?

Discuss.
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A photo of g93 g93
So you just decided to make a new thread I see?
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@g93 wrote
So you just decided to make a new thread I see?


Yes, it will keep the AFM thread more organized and will (hopefully) attract university students here.
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A photo of Bossofbosses Bossofbosses
The AFM program specializes in accounting and finance. I personally believe that having background knowledge in business will expand your options, as well as help you in accounting and finance.
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@Bossofbosses wrote
The AFM program specializes in accounting and finance. I personally believe that having background knowledge in business will expand your options, as well as help you in accounting and finance.



Because The Environmental Context of Management is just that important.
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A photo of g93 g93
They have Math/CA, Biotech/CA, BBA/BMath, BBA/BSc.... why not BBA/CA? (or Business/CA or BBA/BAFM, whatever you want to call it)
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@g93 wrote
They have Math/CA, Biotech/CA, BBA/BMath, BBA/BSc.... why not BBA/CA? (or Business/CA or BBA/BAFM, whatever you want to call it)


Not even a double degree really, just a few more business courses.
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A photo of Bossofbosses Bossofbosses

@g93 wrote
They have Math/CA, Biotech/CA, BBA/BMath, BBA/BSc.... why not BBA/CA? (or Business/CA or BBA/BAFM, whatever you want to call it)



I'll be down for that DD. But bba at Laurier.
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A photo of iDream iDream
What if i end up not liking accounting? ill still have other options... heard upper year accounting courses are mad boring. To be successful, it is really important to have some knowledge in every aspect of business.

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A photo of BobTheBuilder BobTheBuilder

@johnnycanuck wrote
Waterloo AFM is an excellent program, no doubt, but there is very little business content. This concerns me.

I am choosing between QC and AFM-PA, g93 is choosing between AFM-PA and Laurier, and I'm sure others are doing the same.

For those in AFM- did the lack of business worry you?

For those at other schools- is this one of the reasons why you chose your school? Why you didn't choose AFM if it applies to you?

Discuss.



Im a student in Brock's accounting program. It boils down to this:

In terms of courses, BAcc = BAFM = BBA w/ CA Concentration = BCom w/ CA Concentration

Fundamentally, theres no difference b/w the coursework (all 4 timetables are filled with the ICAO-required classes) - only the degree.

Therefore, will a BBA or BCom with a concentration in accounting really prepare you for Investment Banking or Finance better than BAcc or BAFM? Nope. I'm required to take the same minimum amount of HR, Marketing and Finance classes as a BCom/BBA student.

Also, recruiters do look at your transcript. If you are a Queen's Commerce student with an accounting concentration, they would see that you only have introductory marketing/HR/IT courses.

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@BobTheBuilder wrote

@johnnycanuck wrote
Waterloo AFM is an excellent program, no doubt, but there is very little business content. This concerns me.

I am choosing between QC and AFM-PA, g93 is choosing between AFM-PA and Laurier, and I'm sure others are doing the same.

For those in AFM- did the lack of business worry you?

For those at other schools- is this one of the reasons why you chose your school? Why you didn't choose AFM if it applies to you?

Discuss.



Im a student in Brock's accounting program. It boils down to this:

In terms of courses, BAcc = BAFM = BBA w/ CA Concentration = BCom w/ CA Concentration

Fundamentally, theres no difference b/w the coursework (all 4 timetables are filled with the ICAO-required classes) - only the degree.

Therefore, will a BBA or BCom with a concentration in accounting really prepare you for Investment Banking or Finance better than BAcc or BAFM? Nope. I'm required to take the same minimum amount of HR, Marketing and Finance classes as a BCom/BBA student.

Also, recruiters do look at your transcript. If you are a Queen's Commerce student with an accounting concentration, they would see that you only have introductory marketing/HR/IT courses.




Since when do you take marketing, HR, etc. at Brock? (Or Waterloo for that matter). I realize there is some basic business courses, but not the same as you would get at a business undergrad, where your first two years are fairly general. Yes your later years will be all accounting, but you do not receive those few courses.
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I didn't apply to Waterloo AFM but I definitely thought about it because I know it's great for accounting and I may very well follow through with a CA.

However, I'm not dead set on it so I didn't apply. If I went to AFM and experienced a change of heart...well I'm kinda screwed lol.

Therefore I'd choose Queen's since it's very good at everything. It keeps your options open too :)
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A photo of IanSharer IanSharer
Choose Queen's.

Even though some of you are locked onto a CA path, most of you (at least those who want to move up and make money) are looking into just getting your designation and moving into the industry. Therefore it's crucial to be knowledgeable in all business streams and to have a good business acumen. A program like Queen's which incorporates many cases to put you in real life situations will be a lot more useful than studying every single accounting principle from a textbook.

Besides, something I've always wondered is why many of you are attracted to these accounting programs over top tier business programs. Queen's is still a target school, it's accredited, it's more "prestigious" than Waterloo (in the business world), and it's only going to take an extra 4 months if that if you're looking to get your CA as fast as possible.
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@johnnycanuck wrote
Waterloo AFM is an excellent program, no doubt, but there is very little business content. This concerns me.

I am choosing between QC and AFM-PA, g93 is choosing between AFM-PA and Laurier, and I'm sure others are doing the same.

For those in AFM- did the lack of business worry you?

For those at other schools- is this one of the reasons why you chose your school? Why you didn't choose AFM if it applies to you?

Discuss.



Personally, I chose AFM because it was the fastest route to becoming a CA and getting a masters degree.

Having an older sibling that went to a general business school and got a BBA, the BBA/BComm market is VERY saturated right now. Having JUST a BComm/BBA just doesn't cut it anymore. Every year, many schools are churning out business grads. I'm not sure if it's different for QC graduates (they probably do better), but it seems like the starting salary for non-finance jobs are mediocre to accounting ones.

For AFM students that do 4 Co-op terms at a Big 4, we come back usually as senior staff, so we have more job security than the new fresh out of school grads from other non-coop business schools specializing in accounting. We're on average around a year ahead of seniority over people entering university the same year.

In AFM, there are some business courses, there isn't a whole lot, but it really doesn't bother me. To be honest, I always thought business courses were more on the BS side. They introduce a million definitions and expect people to somehow use it in real life. Honestly, the only skills someone in the business world need is the ability to be a great communicator, have presence and most importantly, connections.

From my perception of AFM graduates, many of them are just working in accounting to qualify for their CA, and moving on to like analysts/industry jobs.

Hope that helps!
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^ Hey Junction, thanks for the post, helps a lot.

I was thinking about the business courses and thought the same thing- that they are partly BS.

g93 suggested a good idea- taking business courses at Laurier while at Waterloo. You're not guaranteed to get them, but you could take only what you are interested in instead of taking useless electives at UW.

Have you heard of this Junction?
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A photo of Junction Junction

@johnnycanuck wrote
^ Hey Junction, thanks for the post, helps a lot.

I was thinking about the business courses and thought the same thing- that they are partly BS.

g93 suggested a good idea- taking business courses at Laurier while at Waterloo. You're not guaranteed to get them, but you could take only what you are interested in instead of taking useless electives at UW.

Have you heard of this Junction?



I know UW students in Math/Business and Rec/Business takes required business courses at Laurier.

I actually haven't heard of any AFM students take Laurier business courses; that's actually a pretty good idea. As you guys don't have to do that stupid Area of Interest requirement anymore, you guys have a few electives so I wouldn't see why you couldn't do business courses at Laurier.

It's best to maybe inquire with Patty in regards to this matter though if it's something you want to pursue.

P.S. Human Resources is considered part of the Faculty of Arts at UW, so you could pick up some of those courses as your elective if you want some more business breadth as well!
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@Junction wrote

@johnnycanuck wrote
^ Hey Junction, thanks for the post, helps a lot.

I was thinking about the business courses and thought the same thing- that they are partly BS.

g93 suggested a good idea- taking business courses at Laurier while at Waterloo. You're not guaranteed to get them, but you could take only what you are interested in instead of taking useless electives at UW.

Have you heard of this Junction?



I know UW students in Math/Business and Rec/Business takes required business courses at Laurier.

I actually haven't heard of any AFM students take Laurier business courses; that's actually a pretty good idea. As you guys don't have to do that stupid Area of Interest requirement anymore, you guys have a few electives so I wouldn't see why you couldn't do business courses at Laurier.

It's best to maybe inquire with Patty in regards to this matter though if it's something you want to pursue.

P.S. Human Resources is considered part of the Faculty of Arts at UW, so you could pick up some of those courses as your elective if you want some more business breadth as well!

lright, thanks for your help!
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A photo of g93 g93

@johnnycanuck wrote

@Junction wrote

@johnnycanuck wrote
^ Hey Junction, thanks for the post, helps a lot.

I was thinking about the business courses and thought the same thing- that they are partly BS.

g93 suggested a good idea- taking business courses at Laurier while at Waterloo. You're not guaranteed to get them, but you could take only what you are interested in instead of taking useless electives at UW.

Have you heard of this Junction?



I know UW students in Math/Business and Rec/Business takes required business courses at Laurier.

I actually haven't heard of any AFM students take Laurier business courses; that's actually a pretty good idea. As you guys don't have to do that stupid Area of Interest requirement anymore, you guys have a few electives so I wouldn't see why you couldn't do business courses at Laurier.

It's best to maybe inquire with Patty in regards to this matter though if it's something you want to pursue.

P.S. Human Resources is considered part of the Faculty of Arts at UW, so you could pick up some of those courses as your elective if you want some more business breadth as well!

lright, thanks for your help!



+ 1 thanks Junction
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I think Ian Sharer is spot on. I had made the same comment earlier but it was disregarded. You may not feel like there is a big difference now but a Business degree will help you down the road with your CA and When wanting to head into industry. It gives you a good background to work with and the pure Accounting programs just don't do that.
It will make no difference if you want to remain in Tax or Auditing but I am sure many of you want to head outside those areas like other many successful CAs in the past.
It is not only the knowledge learned but there is emphasis on various areas in Business. You will be put into different situations with Cases and the Business skills learned will make you a better CA overall no doubt. Business courses are not BS they are far from it but if you believe they are then you should stick to a pure accounting program ;)
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@dxb2ont wrote
I think Ian Sharer is spot on. I had made the same comment earlier but it was disregarded. You may not feel like there is a big difference now but a Business degree will help you down the road with your CA and When wanting to head into industry. It gives you a good background to work with and the pure Accounting programs just don't do that.
It will make no difference if you want to remain in Tax or Auditing but I am sure many of you want to head outside those areas like other many successful CAs in the past.
It is not only the knowledge learned but there is emphasis on various areas in Business. You will be put into different situations with Cases and the Business skills learned will make you a better CA overall no doubt. Business courses are not BS they are far from it but if you believe they are then you should stick to a pure accounting program ;)


You are only getting a few more business courses in a BBA/BComm w. accounting specialization versus AFM or Brock BAcc. Working in co-op, you can learn a thing or two about how businesses run in real life.
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A photo of Junction Junction

@dxb2ont wrote
I think Ian Sharer is spot on. I had made the same comment earlier but it was disregarded. You may not feel like there is a big difference now but a Business degree will help you down the road with your CA and When wanting to head into industry. It gives you a good background to work with and the pure Accounting programs just don't do that.
It will make no difference if you want to remain in Tax or Auditing but I am sure many of you want to head outside those areas like other many successful CAs in the past.
It is not only the knowledge learned but there is emphasis on various areas in Business. You will be put into different situations with Cases and the Business skills learned will make you a better CA overall no doubt. Business courses are not BS they are far from it but if you believe they are then you should stick to a pure accounting program ;)



You do know that once you get your CA designation, your undergrad doesn't matter anymore, right?

You do know that most business courses that you're going to take (until maybe 3rd year) are going to be those "BS" courses that will make you regurgitate definitions. Most universities (including the accounting focused ones) offer case studies in upper years (ex. Business Strategy (AFM341) and AFM471 (Cases in Corporate Finance).

I don't really know where you are getting your information from, but after you get your CA designation, your degree really doesn't make a difference (maybe only if the interviewer was from your school); it's more about job experience and the actual interview.
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A photo of g93 g93

@Junction wrote

@dxb2ont wrote
I think Ian Sharer is spot on. I had made the same comment earlier but it was disregarded. You may not feel like there is a big difference now but a Business degree will help you down the road with your CA and When wanting to head into industry. It gives you a good background to work with and the pure Accounting programs just don't do that.
It will make no difference if you want to remain in Tax or Auditing but I am sure many of you want to head outside those areas like other many successful CAs in the past.
It is not only the knowledge learned but there is emphasis on various areas in Business. You will be put into different situations with Cases and the Business skills learned will make you a better CA overall no doubt. Business courses are not BS they are far from it but if you believe they are then you should stick to a pure accounting program ;)



You do know that once you get your CA designation, your undergrad doesn't matter anymore, right?

You do know that most business courses that you're going to take (until maybe 3rd year) are going to be those "BS" courses that will make you regurgitate definitions. Most universities (including the accounting focused ones) offer case studies in upper years (ex. Business Strategy (AFM341) and AFM471 (Cases in Corporate Finance).

I don't really know where you are getting your information from, but after you get your CA designation, your degree really doesn't make a difference (maybe only if the interviewer was from your school); it's more about job experience and the actual interview.


+ 1
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@Junction wrote

@dxb2ont wrote
I think Ian Sharer is spot on. I had made the same comment earlier but it was disregarded. You may not feel like there is a big difference now but a Business degree will help you down the road with your CA and When wanting to head into industry. It gives you a good background to work with and the pure Accounting programs just don't do that.
It will make no difference if you want to remain in Tax or Auditing but I am sure many of you want to head outside those areas like other many successful CAs in the past.
It is not only the knowledge learned but there is emphasis on various areas in Business. You will be put into different situations with Cases and the Business skills learned will make you a better CA overall no doubt. Business courses are not BS they are far from it but if you believe they are then you should stick to a pure accounting program ;)



You do know that once you get your CA designation, your undergrad doesn't matter anymore, right?

You do know that most business courses that you're going to take (until maybe 3rd year) are going to be those "BS" courses that will make you regurgitate definitions. Most universities (including the accounting focused ones) offer case studies in upper years (ex. Business Strategy (AFM341) and AFM471 (Cases in Corporate Finance).

I don't really know where you are getting your information from, but after you get your CA designation, your degree really doesn't make a difference (maybe only if the interviewer was from your school); it's more about job experience and the actual interview.



Remember that this has nothing to do with the AFM program which I think is an outstanding program but how a Business degree could be more useful.
I think you have misinterpreted what I have said and I do know the degree makes no difference once you have got you CA! It is what you learn during the business program that sets it apart. Business Courses are not only
"BS" courses that will make you regurgitate definitions. That is simply not true.
You learn how to communicate, present, deal with situations, have a sound knowledge of all instruments of business studies like Hr,Operations,marketing,etc. I beleive it prepares you well for your corporate life ahead. I am under the assumption that Business courses and Business at undergrad in general will be much more useful, unless anyone in programs like Queens,Ivey,Schulich,Laurier that are heading for the CA can tell me otherwise.
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A photo of g93 g93

@dxb2ont wrote

@Junction wrote

@dxb2ont wrote
I think Ian Sharer is spot on. I had made the same comment earlier but it was disregarded. You may not feel like there is a big difference now but a Business degree will help you down the road with your CA and When wanting to head into industry. It gives you a good background to work with and the pure Accounting programs just don't do that.
It will make no difference if you want to remain in Tax or Auditing but I am sure many of you want to head outside those areas like other many successful CAs in the past.
It is not only the knowledge learned but there is emphasis on various areas in Business. You will be put into different situations with Cases and the Business skills learned will make you a better CA overall no doubt. Business courses are not BS they are far from it but if you believe they are then you should stick to a pure accounting program ;)



You do know that once you get your CA designation, your undergrad doesn't matter anymore, right?

You do know that most business courses that you're going to take (until maybe 3rd year) are going to be those "BS" courses that will make you regurgitate definitions. Most universities (including the accounting focused ones) offer case studies in upper years (ex. Business Strategy (AFM341) and AFM471 (Cases in Corporate Finance).

I don't really know where you are getting your information from, but after you get your CA designation, your degree really doesn't make a difference (maybe only if the interviewer was from your school); it's more about job experience and the actual interview.



Remember that this has nothing to do with the AFM program which I think is an outstanding program but how a Business degree could be more useful.
I think you have misinterpreted what I have said and I do know the degree makes no difference once you have got you CA! It is what you learn during the business program that sets it apart. Business Courses are not only
"BS" courses that will make you regurgitate definitions. That is simply not true.
You learn how to communicate, present, deal with situations, have a sound knowledge of all instruments of business studies like Hr,Operations,marketing,etc. I beleive it prepares you well for your corporate life ahead. I am under the assumption that Business courses and Business at undergrad in general will be much more useful, unless anyone in programs like Queens,Ivey,Schulich,Laurier that are heading for the CA can tell me otherwise.


This thread was created for the purpose of those deciding on whether or not they want to go to AFM can discuss it vs other programs.

Looking at the courses at Laurier (and other schools) there are some pretty useless business courses. Business policy for example. It sounds exactly like Business Leadership in high school. Absolutely useless BS where you regurgitate information. It's not really something that you can just be taught and have it ingrained in your brain. I think practical experience would be far more beneficial than it.

Waterloo does have some business courses. They have international business, business IT, business context, a couple courses with case studies, some new finance courses (eg global financial markets, managerial finance and corporate finance), business strategy and business ethics. Not too different than Laurier + others, you are just missing marketing and HR, which if you really wanted to you could take at Laurier (HR you can take at UW).

I'm not saying business knowledge isn't important, but is the few extra courses (some of it BS) worth sacrificing all that AFM has to offer? I'm starting to think no.
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@Despondent wrote

@Bossofbosses wrote
The AFM program specializes in accounting and finance. I personally believe that having background knowledge in business will expand your options, as well as help you in accounting and finance.



Because The Environmental Context of Management is just that important.




@Junction wrote

You do know that once you get your CA designation, your undergrad doesn't matter anymore, right?

You do know that most business courses that you're going to take (until maybe 3rd year) are going to be those "BS" courses that will make you regurgitate definitions. Most universities (including the accounting focused ones) offer case studies in upper years (ex. Business Strategy (AFM341) and AFM471 (Cases in Corporate Finance).





These 2 quotes pretty much sum up the thread.

If you are worried about how "well rounded" your business knowledge will be in marketing, HR or management after an accounitng degree then don't go into accounting. Every accounting program will give you more than adequate business knowledge (assuming they all make economics mandatory, which should be essential for all business students). 1st and 2nd year general business courses will teach you very little.
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A photo of IanSharer IanSharer

@g93 wrote
This thread was created for the purpose of those deciding on whether or not they want to go to AFM can discuss it vs other programs.

Looking at the courses at Laurier (and other schools) there are some pretty useless business courses. Business policy for example. It sounds exactly like Business Leadership in high school. Absolutely useless BS where you regurgitate information. It's not really something that you can just be taught and have it ingrained in your brain. I think practical experience would be far more beneficial than it.

Waterloo does have some business courses. They have international business, business IT, business context, a couple courses with case studies, some new finance courses (eg global financial markets, managerial finance and corporate finance), business strategy and business ethics. Not too different than Laurier + others, you are just missing marketing and HR, which if you really wanted to you could take at Laurier (HR you can take at UW).

I'm not saying business knowledge isn't important, but is the few extra courses (some of it BS) worth sacrificing all that AFM has to offer? I'm starting to think no.



If you think of those business courses as bs definition regurgitation, then pretty much all courses are like that. A majority of the stuff you "learn" in school is pointless and won't ever be used in the workforce. I wasn't referring to the content in the courses (because most of the stuff you learn in business programs isn't exactly too difficult), I was referring to the skills you learn. Most top tier programs (especially Queen's and Ivey) put you in several real life case situations, give you plenty of networking opportunities, hold several conferences, etc... These polish your networking and interviewing skills, which are MUCH more important than all the bs definitions and principles. My friend (3rd year schulicher) mentioned a networking conference where all schools were invited, and it was dominated by Ivey students as they knew how to network properly. Obviously this is just one example, but is it just a coincidence that all the top finance jobs (which require immense people skills) are dominated by Ivey and Queen's students?

Besides, what exactly does AFM offer? Assuming you didn't get a fellowship offer (and even that I don't think is worth it), what do you gain? Even if you somehow are locked onto becoming a CA, the time you save is very insignificant, you spend considerably more, and the same opportunities are available.
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