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A photo of CityBoy CityBoy
[size=7]Decided to turn this into a thread where people can post stuff worth reading from old forums to articles. None of this is mine (thatguy), I'm just posting whatever I think is worth considering when making one of the biggest decisions of your life.

Dug this up in the old forum.. and just thought this was interesting. Not trying to bash Ivey or anything because it's one of my top choices but just something worth reading..[/size]



quadrant wrote:
"There’s some people who are going to Ivey here, and yes, congratulations, however, I just wanted to share with you some of my thoughts before you make that final decision.

Last year, I got accepted into Ivey and Schulich. I also applied to queens, but didn’t get in. I chose Schulich over Ivey, and boy, did I make the right choice. Going to Ivey is a huge rip-off; you may not feel like it at first, but Ivey at the end of the day is a school for MBAs, not a school for undergrads.

Here's a few of my points about going to Ivey:

A) The degree you get from graduating from Ivey is a Honours Bachelor of Arts (HBA). Seriously, you’re paying like double to get an Arts degree on Honours Business Administration. If your parents can afford it, great, but in reality, if you are going to go abroad to anywhere outside North America, recruiters are going to see this and it’d be a huge waste of money. Ivey has done well to hide that in their marketing, but if you ask them straight up, they will eventually tell you that its an Arts Degree you're getting (with the University of Western Ontario printed on it).

B) Ivey is a 2 year program, not a 4 year program. Most of the stuff you learn in third year at Ivey you learn in first and second year in 4 year program like Schulich. By the time you start third year, an Schulich 3rd year (or Queen’s or wherever you go) is in a much better position than a Ivey third year.

C) A lot of people on this forum talks about jobs, co-op, internships, etc. Well, students who are in AEO in first and second year do not receive career support from Ivey like they do from Schulich. All those job postings, benefits, etc are all stuff you get in year 3 and 4, not in year 1 or 2.

D) If you decide to go on exchange, Ivey is definitely not a good choice for that. Again, it’s about what you pay for vs. what you get. If you go on exchange to Mexico or Europe or wherever, you are losing half a year of Ivey which is 25% of the program. Why would you do that? At Schulich if you go on exchange you only lose 12.5% of the program.

E) Ivey says that they have electives and they have diverse classes, etc because you are in another program in year 1 and 2. In reality, you’d be taking arts or social science courses like every other “regular dude” in class sizes of 400 to 500, or even bigger, in year 1 or 2. Most people who go to Ivey start with BMOS, and the entering average of BMOS is not high at all – how would you find year 1 and 2 challenging when you’re in a class full of regular non-achieving students? Again, I’d rather be paying my money to go straight into a business program that has 300 or whatever (less if you’re in iBBA) students in the ENTIRE program. Just look at how many offers they are making to try get lots of people to get in - and they are even increasing their program size to 500 students?

F) Lastly, Ivey has no huge advantage these days anymore. Maybe 10 years ago they do, but lets get serious here. Everyone has case-based courses, everyone does cases, every school has a great career centre (especially at Schulich and Queen’s), and the top schools like Schulich and Queen’s are highly selective in admissions. We at Schulich also have smaller classes than Ivey’s class sizes of 75, and that’s just in third year. Classes get even smaller when you go up. Just look at the Ivey website… just look at it – it disgusts me that they use simple marketing campaigns to make their program look complex while it’s offered everywhere else. “Ivey Select (TM)”, “Ivey Immersion (TM)”, “Ivey Environment (TM)”, “Ivey Career View (TM)”. It’s a huge marketing scam and really they’re just trying to make you think you’re making a good investment while in the meantime they are getting your money to fund their MBA or executive programs.

You may disagree with some of my points, and that’s totally fine. But I just want to let you know that last year I was in the same position of many of you guys: Ivey vs. Schulich (or maybe for some other people its ivey vs queens or ivey vs. mcgill or ivey vs. laurier), and I almost chose Ivey – and I’m glad I didn’t. If I chose Ivey I would’ve been sitting without a proper job for the summer right now. I would not have been able to meet some really great people in my classes – hell I might still be drifting off in geography or psychology or some other useless subject. And I also think there’s a reason why people on the forums who chose to go to Ivey don’t post here… I think it’s because they feel ripped off and are little too embarrassed to come back. Schulich, Queen’s, McGill, Laurier are great schools and you need to really consider all your cards that is available to you.

Think before you make your decisions… think… think… think… it’s a huge decision and I know a few of my friends at UWO who was on the Ivey track are already kind of not happy about their decision. Don’t regret your choice."
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A photo of IanSharer IanSharer

@CityBoy wrote
A) The degree you get from graduating from Ivey is a Honours Bachelor of Arts (HBA). Seriously, you’re paying like double to get an Arts degree on Honours Business Administration. If your parents can afford it, great, but in reality, if you are going to go abroad to anywhere outside North America, recruiters are going to see this and it’d be a huge waste of money. Ivey has done well to hide that in their marketing, but if you ask them straight up, they will eventually tell you that its an Arts Degree you're getting (with the University of Western Ontario printed on it).



The actual degree makes almost no difference. You're going to get employed based on your abilities and whether or not the school you attend is a target school, and Ivey is definitely a target school.


@CityBoy wrote
B) Ivey is a 2 year program, not a 4 year program. Most of the stuff you learn in third year at Ivey you learn in first and second year in 4 year program like Schulich. By the time you start third year, an Schulich 3rd year (or Queen’s or wherever you go) is in a much better position than a Ivey third year.



You learn everything you need to know in those two years. No bullshit business history/ethics courses like Schulich and no need to have a bunch of nonbusiness electives just to fill in four years.


@CityBoy wrote
C) A lot of people on this forum talks about jobs, co-op, internships, etc. Well, students who are in AEO in first and second year do not receive career support from Ivey like they do from Schulich. All those job postings, benefits, etc are all stuff you get in year 3 and 4, not in year 1 or 2.



It's not like anyone gets any internships in first and second year. If you don't believe me, ask any Schulich or Queen's students; third and fourth year is when employers actually consider you, and if you look at Ivey's summer internship stats, it's at a whopping 98% employment.


@CityBoy wrote
D) If you decide to go on exchange, Ivey is definitely not a good choice for that. Again, it’s about what you pay for vs. what you get. If you go on exchange to Mexico or Europe or wherever, you are losing half a year of Ivey which is 25% of the program. Why would you do that? At Schulich if you go on exchange you only lose 12.5% of the program.



Again, refer to my earlier part on the two year program. And you're not really loosing out on the program since you're going to want to go on exchange to another top notch business school.


@CityBoy wrote
E) Ivey says that they have electives and they have diverse classes, etc because you are in another program in year 1 and 2. In reality, you’d be taking arts or social science courses like every other “regular dude” in class sizes of 400 to 500, or even bigger, in year 1 or 2. Most people who go to Ivey start with BMOS, and the entering average of BMOS is not high at all – how would you find year 1 and 2 challenging when you’re in a class full of regular non-achieving students? Again, I’d rather be paying my money to go straight into a business program that has 300 or whatever (less if you’re in iBBA) students in the ENTIRE program. Just look at how many offers they are making to try get lots of people to get in - and they are even increasing their program size to 500 students?



I could agree with this...but for those with diverse interests or who don't have their interests set in stone, the two year program would definitely help. Also, you don't necessarily have to be in a social science program. Their engineering and sciences programs are nothing to put down.


@CityBoy wrote
F) Lastly, Ivey has no huge advantage these days anymore. Maybe 10 years ago they do, but lets get serious here. Everyone has case-based courses, everyone does cases, every school has a great career centre (especially at Schulich and Queen’s), and the top schools like Schulich and Queen’s are highly selective in admissions. We at Schulich also have smaller classes than Ivey’s class sizes of 75, and that’s just in third year. Classes get even smaller when you go up. Just look at the Ivey website… just look at it – it disgusts me that they use simple marketing campaigns to make their program look complex while it’s offered everywhere else. “Ivey Select (TM)”, “Ivey Immersion (TM)”, “Ivey Environment (TM)”, “Ivey Career View (TM)”. It’s a huge marketing scam and really they’re just trying to make you think you’re making a good investment while in the meantime they are getting your money to fund their MBA or executive programs.



You could say the latter about any business school. Also, Ivey still has some impressive employment numbers.

The guy who made this post was obviously some Ivey hater and could even be a little jealous.
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A photo of Thatguy Thatguy
I respect what you have said, and don't necessarily disagree. I just find some of the things you have said about Ivey can't possibly be quantified, i.e. the people that are in the programs.

I do have a theory about you though. Seeing as you are a first your university student, what are you doing on a high school forum, where do you get the time to trash other universities? Do you have nothing better to do?

Ivey/Queen's/McGill students are having a good time partying on their free time, while Schulich students like you are trashing other universities on a high school forum. (Far fetched, I don't mean to offend anyone, just want to point out how it looks)

You are clearly not a mentally sound individual, not good for Schulich's reputation.
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A photo of g93 g93

@Thatguy wrote
I respect what you have said, and don't necessarily disagree. I just find some of the things you have said about Ivey can't possibly be quantified, i.e. the people that are in the programs.

I do have a theory about you though. Seeing as you are a first your university student, what are you doing on a high school forum, where do you get the time to trash other universities? Do you have nothing better to do?

Ivey/Queen's/McGill students are having a good time partying on their free time, while Schulich students like you are trashing other universities on a high school forum. (Far fetched, I don't mean to offend anyone, just want to point out how it looks)

You are clearly not a mentally sound individual, not good for Schulich's reputation.


Can you even read?
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A photo of Thatguy Thatguy

@g93 wrote

@Thatguy wrote
I respect what you have said, and don't necessarily disagree. I just find some of the things you have said about Ivey can't possibly be quantified, i.e. the people that are in the programs.

I do have a theory about you though. Seeing as you are a first your university student, what are you doing on a high school forum, where do you get the time to trash other universities? Do you have nothing better to do?

Ivey/Queen's/McGill students are having a good time partying on their free time, while Schulich students like you are trashing other universities on a high school forum. (Far fetched, I don't mean to offend anyone, just want to point out how it looks)

You are clearly not a mentally sound individual, not good for Schulich's reputation.


Can you even read?



Whoa their missy, didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Its just a forum, relax
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@Thatguy wrote

@g93 wrote

@Thatguy wrote
I respect what you have said, and don't necessarily disagree. I just find some of the things you have said about Ivey can't possibly be quantified, i.e. the people that are in the programs.

I do have a theory about you though. Seeing as you are a first your university student, what are you doing on a high school forum, where do you get the time to trash other universities? Do you have nothing better to do?

Ivey/Queen's/McGill students are having a good time partying on their free time, while Schulich students like you are trashing other universities on a high school forum. (Far fetched, I don't mean to offend anyone, just want to point out how it looks)

You are clearly not a mentally sound individual, not good for Schulich's reputation.


Can you even read?



Whoa their missy, didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Its just a forum, relax



Don't worry about g93; he's pretty sensitive :tongue:
Oh and people, CityBoy is just quoting the post of someone else.
Although Thatguy, you sure are feisty one :thumright
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A photo of Socialism Socialism

@Thatguy wrote

@g93 wrote

@Thatguy wrote
I respect what you have said, and don't necessarily disagree. I just find some of the things you have said about Ivey can't possibly be quantified, i.e. the people that are in the programs.

I do have a theory about you though. Seeing as you are a first your university student, what are you doing on a high school forum, where do you get the time to trash other universities? Do you have nothing better to do?

Ivey/Queen's/McGill students are having a good time partying on their free time, while Schulich students like you are trashing other universities on a high school forum. (Far fetched, I don't mean to offend anyone, just want to point out how it looks)

You are clearly not a mentally sound individual, not good for Schulich's reputation.


Can you even read?



Whoa their missy, didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Its just a forum, relax



He has a point. The OP didn't come up with that post, he simply copy & pasted it from the old studentawards forum.

I never understood much of the hate between Schulich, Queen's and Ivey. They're all top tier, are they not? Get into a top tier University and then it all comes down to your abilities and desires.
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@Socialism wrote

I never understood much of the hate between Schulich, Queen's and Ivey. They're all top tier, are they not? Get into a top tier University and then it all comes down to your abilities and desires.



It is because they are all top-tier that there is this competitive .. rivalry, I guess.

Everyone wants to feel that they made the right choice, that they are superior. Just human nature.
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A photo of BBABOSS BBABOSS
The guy who made this post was obviously some Ivey hater and could even be a little jealous. [/quote]


I'm not agreeing with him, but your not very credible yourself as your still in high school. I know multiple kids that are rattled they have to do two years in BMOS, and some even regret the decision of going there, so clearly there is some issue with having to do two years of another program before ivey.
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A photo of Thatguy Thatguy

@Alizarin wrote

@Socialism wrote

I never understood much of the hate between Schulich, Queen's and Ivey. They're all top tier, are they not? Get into a top tier University and then it all comes down to your abilities and desires.



It is because they are all top-tier that there is this competitive .. rivalry, I guess.

Everyone wants to feel that they made the right choice, that they are superior. Just human nature.



Alizarin, I must say you are a very logical, and a well balanced person.
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@Thatguy wrote

Alizarin, I must say you are a very logical, and a well balanced person.



Why thank you, good sir! :sunny:
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A photo of Marie5 Marie5
Thanks for posting that. A lot of points that I haven't thought of...although the person OP was quoting is expressing a pretty biased view, doesn't mean there aren't truths to them.

When it comes down to it, I'd say the top schools are really about the same, just what's convenient for you personally.

I'm going to Schulich because it's a 2hr drive from home, while other places are like...5 xD
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A photo of g93 g93

@Socialism wrote

@Thatguy wrote

@g93 wrote

@Thatguy wrote
I respect what you have said, and don't necessarily disagree. I just find some of the things you have said about Ivey can't possibly be quantified, i.e. the people that are in the programs.

I do have a theory about you though. Seeing as you are a first your university student, what are you doing on a high school forum, where do you get the time to trash other universities? Do you have nothing better to do?

Ivey/Queen's/McGill students are having a good time partying on their free time, while Schulich students like you are trashing other universities on a high school forum. (Far fetched, I don't mean to offend anyone, just want to point out how it looks)

You are clearly not a mentally sound individual, not good for Schulich's reputation.


Can you even read?



Whoa their missy, didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Its just a forum, relax



He has a point. The OP didn't come up with that post, he simply copy & pasted it from the old studentawards forum.

I never understood much of the hate between Schulich, Queen's and Ivey. They're all top tier, are they not? Get into a top tier University and then it all comes down to your abilities and desires.


Exactly. Thatguy should have read that before he called the OP "not a mentally sound individual". Also, this isn't just a high school forum.
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A photo of immaculatedx immaculatedx
I for one think it's a great post
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A photo of callie2039 callie2039
I went to the western open house yesterday... andI actually cannot agree more with the OP (or the guy he quoted, whatever).

I kind of had that vibe from Ivey... good to know my intuition is confirmed!
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A photo of CityBoy CityBoy
[size=7]Another great post worth reading that talks about some university programs[/size]


Desautels Faculty of Management, McGill University
Pros:
- Great recruiting grounds for consulting since a lot of the business students are at least bilingual.
- Partners with the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania in their exchange program.
- Faculty member Henry Mintzberg, the most renowned Canadian-born business professor teaching in Canada.
- McGill’s “brand” name attracts recruiting and employability especially overseas.
- McGill tuition subsidized for Quebec residents.
- Intangibles: Montreal is a city of style.
Cons:
- Like most buildings in McGill, the Bronfman building is a 1950s architectural nightmare.
- Not recognized by the AACSB.

Queen’s School of Business, Queen’s University
Pros:
- The premiere program of the University.
- Small class size combined with the use of in-classroom technology to engage students.
- Impressive recruitment of graduates from established firms.
- Offers bursaries to help students finance high program fee.
- Hosts the prestigious ICBC competition each year.
- Ranked #1 business school outside of the US by BW.
- Intangibles: Great campus life, excellent quality of education, Goodes Hall is a gorgeous building.
- Partnered with Cornell University for the Executive MBA program.
Cons:
- Strictest academic regulations (i.e.: maintaining full course load, limit on summer courses, etc.).
- Needs to promote diversity within their faculty and student body.

Richard Ivey School of Business, University of Western Ontario
Pros:
- Admits the brightest students based on highly rigorous admissions standards.
- Very impressive placements for HBA graduates with also the highest reported salaries.
- Does a good job blending leadership principles and MBA-like case studies into its curriculum.
- Impressive advisory board (from Dean's, Asia and Europe).
- First two years allow students to gain skills (e.g.: engineering, science) that brings diversity to their classroom learning.
- $100M state-of-the-art Ivey business building underway ($50M donated by Federal gov.)
- Intangibles: Magnificent campus, great school spirit, great on-campus life, high marks for teaching
Cons:
- Large class sizes in HBA1.
- Not ideal for would-be accountants.
- Incredibly expensive program fee.
- Wait two years to gain direct entry into HBA program.

Rotman Faculty of Management, University of Toronto (St. George campus)
Pros:
- Usually considered one of the best business schools in Canada.
- Located minutes from Bay Street, the financial capital of Canada.
- Attracts the top companies and recruiters in the world.
- Construction of new Rotman building underway - looks to be very nice! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKFpqNDKTiA
Cons:
- Career Services Centre: poor job in assisting their students.
- Co-op program under-utilized compared to UTSC’s BBA program.
- A lot of commuter students.
- Very little EC involvement with their students.
- Very strict grading system.

Sauder School of Business, University of British Columbia
Pros:
- The top business school in the west coast.
- Very selective admissions process.
- One of Canada's top research business schools - Excels in marketing and real estate research.
- Portfolio Management Foundation: The oldest and most prestigious management training program for undergraduates in Canada.
- Hosts the National Investment Banking Competition & Conference.
- Relatively inexpensive tuition fee compared to other top b-schools.
- BCom students can go on exchange to UC-Berkeley and UCLA.
- MBA exchange program with Duke's Fuqua School of Business.
- Offers co-op option.
- Intangibles: Beautiful campus, mild winter weather, entrepreneurial opportunities in Vancouver.
Cons:
- Finance and consulting grads underrepresented.
- Vancouver’s financial district still underdeveloped.
- Struggling to find funding for completing the business school renovation.

Schulich School of Business, York University
Pros:
- Ranked among one of the world's best b-schools (The Economist 2010).
- Diverse student community and faculty.
- Dollar-for-dollar value, the best business school in Canada.
- Strong in accounting, marketing and international .
- Partnered with Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Management for its Executive MBA.
- Only school to offer a bachelor’s degree specifically geared for International business (i.e.: iBBA).
- Strong career services and alumni networking.
- Vibrant student government and on-campus student clubs.
- Environmentally-conscious infrastructure.
- MBA exchange program with NYU's Leonard N. Stern School of Business.
Cons:
- Very little campus recruitment from the top consulting firms and investment banks.
- Close proximity to Jane-Finch area.
- Commuting on the TTC can be a real hassle.

School of Business & Economics, Wilfrid Laurier University
Pros:
- Flagship program of the University.
- Supportive learning environment with helpful professors, T.A.s and tutoring sessions.
- Dual-degree program (BBA/BCS or BBA/BMATH) with the U. of Waterloo.
- High % of students in co-op and high employment rate after graduation.
- Strong reputation in accounting: Performs well on the UFE provincial examinations.
- Jim Balsillie - member of the Dean's Advisory Board and one of the most powerful businessmen in Canada.
- Intangibles: Great night life; perhaps the hottest business majors.
Cons:
- Very little recognition for its MBA degree program.
- Large classroom sizes and cramped campus space.
- No partnerships with other international business schools.
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Interesting read :) thanks
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@CityBoy wrote
Desautels Faculty of Management, McGill University
- Not recognized by the AACSB.


Whoa, what the heck. That's true, it's not an accredited business school there. What is the effect of that, though?
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@lemony wrote

@CityBoy wrote
Desautels Faculty of Management, McGill University
- Not recognized by the AACSB.


Whoa, what the heck. That's true, it's not an accredited business school there. What is the effect of that, though?


People here don't seem to think much about the AACSB accredidation. But looking on College Confidential, they all seem to care about whether the school is accredited or not. Only 5% of business schools world-wide are accredited or something like that. it's weird. Is it Ivey that isn't accredited as well?
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A photo of lemony lemony

@johnnycanuck wrote

@lemony wrote

@CityBoy wrote
Desautels Faculty of Management, McGill University
- Not recognized by the AACSB.


Whoa, what the heck. That's true, it's not an accredited business school there. What is the effect of that, though?


People here don't seem to think much about the AACSB accredidation. But looking on College Confidential, they all seem to care about whether the school is accredited or not. Only 5% of business schools world-wide are accredited or something like that. it's weird. Is it Ivey that isn't accredited as well?


You're right, Ivey's and Schulich are not accredited either. So it isn't only McGill.
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@callie2039 wrote
I went to the western open house yesterday... andI actually cannot agree more with the OP (or the guy he quoted, whatever).

I kind of had that vibe from Ivey... good to know my intuition is confirmed!



I went to their open house too, but I got there late so I could only listen to their presentation, which just had information that I pretty much knew already... Do you mind elaborating on what vibe you got or what you learned from the open house?
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A photo of noxx98 noxx98

@IanSharer wrote


It's not like anyone gets any internships in first and second year. If you don't believe me, ask any Schulich or Queen's students; third and fourth year is when employers actually consider you, and if you look at Ivey's summer internship stats, it's at a whopping 98% employment.



Sorry too lazy to read the whole thread.

This comment is INCREDIBLY wrong. I know a great deal of students at Queens, Schulich, Laurier, and UW who are getting strong internships/co-op positions in second year. Anything from accounting, to HR to IB positions.

You cannot expect to get a decent internship during first and 2nd year as an AEO at Western. You have little to no business knowledge - so why on earth would an employer want to hire you? Whereas at other schools, you can take advantage of their career services, and at least have business knowledge to utilize.
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A photo of IanSharer IanSharer

@noxx98 wrote

@IanSharer wrote


It's not like anyone gets any internships in first and second year. If you don't believe me, ask any Schulich or Queen's students; third and fourth year is when employers actually consider you, and if you look at Ivey's summer internship stats, it's at a whopping 98% employment.



Sorry too lazy to read the whole thread.

This comment is INCREDIBLY wrong. I know a great deal of students at Queens, Schulich, Laurier, and UW who are getting strong internships/co-op positions in second year. Anything from accounting, to HR to IB positions.

You cannot expect to get a decent internship during first and 2nd year as an AEO at Western. You have little to no business knowledge - so why on earth would an employer want to hire you? Whereas at other schools, you can take advantage of their career services, and at least have business knowledge to utilize.



I'm not sure about other schools, but I've talked to several Schulich students and a few Laurier students and they said only 4-5 (if that) were able to find any meaningful internship as a second year. Unless you have some good connections or are at the absolute top of your class, I doubt you can get anything worthwhile in your second year. If you're in a co-op program, then that's a different story.
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@IanSharer wrote

@noxx98 wrote

@IanSharer wrote


It's not like anyone gets any internships in first and second year. If you don't believe me, ask any Schulich or Queen's students; third and fourth year is when employers actually consider you, and if you look at Ivey's summer internship stats, it's at a whopping 98% employment.



Sorry too lazy to read the whole thread.

This comment is INCREDIBLY wrong. I know a great deal of students at Queens, Schulich, Laurier, and UW who are getting strong internships/co-op positions in second year. Anything from accounting, to HR to IB positions.

You cannot expect to get a decent internship during first and 2nd year as an AEO at Western. You have little to no business knowledge - so why on earth would an employer want to hire you? Whereas at other schools, you can take advantage of their career services, and at least have business knowledge to utilize.



I'm not sure about other schools, but I've talked to several Schulich students and a few Laurier students and they said only 4-5 (if that) were able to find any meaningful internship as a second year. Unless you have some good connections or are at the absolute top of your class, I doubt you can get anything worthwhile in your second year. If you're in a co-op program, then that's a different story.


The people at Laurier who would be getting good internships though, are for the most part in co-op. So its tough to judge if people are getting good internships at WLU because people just get co-op jobs.

Re: Schulich, in my time at a conference there a few months ago, and talking to my girlfriend there, that is not the case.
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