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Waterloo AFM-FM or Queens Commerce

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Which program would benefit you most in the future? Queens Commerce has a highly noted reputation, however no co-op. Waterloo AFM-FM, does indeed guarantee co-op.

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Future career aspirations? What kind of co-op/internships are you looking for? Do you plan to work internationally (including co-ops/internships)? Do you plan to pursue any designations?
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@Soccerboy wrote
Which program would benefit you most in the future? Queens Commerce has a highly noted reputation, however no co-op. Waterloo AFM-FM, does indeed guarantee co-op.




It guarantees coop but it doesnt mean youll be working for a big company right away (big 4 or non big 4, doesnt matter)... it's a super competitive program and finding a job (even with the school's coop system) can be very frustrating due to that competition. Teaching methods differ between the two programs. Asking for which one will benefit you in the future really depends on how much you will take advantage of the extracurricular clubs (program related) that are avail. at either institution, how you deal with competitiveness (both academically and in the workplace).

Honestly speaking, you can find your own internship or co-op even if you go to Queens if you have enough initiative (during the summers). Sure, Waterloo provides co-op and work education (but I honestly find it useless information.. it gets you started but you definitely should not follow it).
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Interesting. Aren't there enough opportunities for everyone in co-op to find a placement? What do you do if you don't get one?

What if you're planning to work in the Finance Sector (don't know specifically, I'm still a teen), and you have work experience unrelated to business, moreover.

So, when you're in Queens Commerce, it isn't as competitive as Waterloo?
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A photo of CMA2014 CMA2014
IF you want a job, go to waterloo.
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A photo of immaculatedx immaculatedx
Depends on what you want.

But RE: jobs, from what I've noticed, there's a plethora of jobs in UW but this only really applies if you're in Math/CS or Engineering.
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@Soccerboy wrote
Interesting. Aren't there enough opportunities for everyone in co-op to find a placement? What do you do if you don't get one?

What if you're planning to work in the Finance Sector (don't know specifically, I'm still a teen), and you have work experience unrelated to business, moreover.

So, when you're in Queens Commerce, it isn't as competitive as Waterloo?


Some people don't apply to enough firms, or don't apply to the right ones (e.g. apply for all of the "top" jobs with a huge number of applicants, which amounts to a waste if you're an uncompetitive applicant). Some people are uncompetitive applicants and can't network/interview well enough so they end up jobless. But PA had like a 100% placement last year and FM was 96% or something, so we're not talking lots of people. If you cannot find a job, they will try and help you get a job. I believe they will stretch what constitutes a co-op job in order to get you a job. Don't quote me, but I think that if you miss one co-op term you have an opportunity to stay in the program still.

What if you're planning to work in the Finance sector? Waterloo has finance jobs, but there's not a plethora of high-end jobs (e.g. you're not going to see GS recruiting for investment banking) but the Big 5 banks hire, some other finance-related companies hire (Manulife and Sunlife, other insurance and mutual funds, pension funds, I'm not sure if they post jobs but people have gotten placements at hedge funds) and then different companies offer jobs in finance-related roles and business-related roles (e.g RIM, HP, Facebook, IBM, Samsung, Pratt & Whitney).

If you have work experience unrelated to business, they will look at it, but it's up to you to draw conclusions between your past jobs and your prospective job. If you were doing sales work that's a good one. That's probably one of the few that stand out. I mean a McDonald's job just isn't going to make the employer jump up and down. But you can point out what you accomplished there and how what you learned applies.

Queen's Commerce is definitely competitive. There's really no way to measure the competitiveness within QC compared to AFM. If we were talking AFM vs Nipissing maybe we can make a safe assumption, but this isn't the case. AFM has a lot of competitiveness due to co-op jobs- everyone is applying and it's something that's constantly on people's minds. Perhaps you don't see this quite as much at QC since not everyone is applying for internships, it's not mandatory, etc. I don't know as much about QC so I can't say for certain but this is the assumption I would make.
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A photo of AgriGen AgriGen
^this guy knows his crap.

I would personally take queens commerece. I was in co-op (not AFM) and eventually left it. Its great for certain majors, but is it a deal breaker if your not in co-op? Certainly not... you can always network/apply to jobs. The queens commerce gives you a lot more opportunity in the future in my opinion though and probably better lifestyle. Cant go wrong either way though both great programs. Have fun!
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A photo of immaculatedx immaculatedx
Agree mostly. With the culture and how things work in the industry business/finance world, co-op really doesn't help that much.
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@AgriGen wrote

I would personally take queens commerece. I was in co-op (not AFM) and eventually left it. Its great for certain majors, but is it a deal breaker if your not in co-op? Certainly not... you can always network/apply to jobs. The queens commerce gives you a lot more opportunity in the future in my opinion though and probably better lifestyle. Cant go wrong either way though both great programs. Have fun!




@immaculatedx wrote
Agree mostly. With the culture and how things work in the industry business/finance world, co-op really doesn't help that much.



This is mostly true, but just want to point out that for some people co-op is a godsend (especially for the first co-op term). It forces you to look for a job (some people will just choose to head back to their part-time job for the summer and stay within their comfort territory). There are listing on the co-op site that you don't have to go searching for. There are all of the resume critiquing, mock interviews, networking sessions and recruiting information nights, and all of that good stuff. So for many people without that they'd never find a job during summers. There's also the benefit of co-op sequencing: try finding accounting placements during the summer (especially in smaller cities) if you're a middling student who's scared of networking and has zero work experience- it's not going to happen. Much better during tax season (and you get worked harder and get to do more important stuff). That's probably one of the few industries where the sequencing really matters.

But yeah, co-op is definitely useless for a lot of people (aside from sequencing). I know I'm going to end up hating PD and paying the co-op fees. I also know that I don't really need the co-op listings in order to find a job. By next year, I'll have held two paid internships in a related field, one unpaid co-op and some part-time jobs. My marks are fine, I don't have troubles networking, so I don't feel the need to pay 600 bucks or whatever it is to do some PD stuff. And the end of workterm report or whatever it's called sounds like a pain.
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A photo of immaculatedx immaculatedx
Like sure if you want to work in Public Accounting, UW is alright. Aside from that, I don't see the point of paying 16K a year just for better sequencing.
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@immaculatedx wrote
Like sure if you want to work in Public Accounting, UW is alright. Aside from that, I don't see the point of paying 16K a year just for better sequencing.


Well the sequencing only really matters to those in public accounting (somewhat to those in management accounting). But the finance firms are all used to hiring in the summer- US schools all have summers off and the schools that people usually consider the "top" for finance in Canada all have no co-op.

For a select few people, AFM may make sense if you preferred the school over Queen's or others (for finance). The tuition would be about the same. Also if you can't get into some of the other top schools, then AFM is an alright backup.

But yeah, for most people Queen's (or other) is the better option... 16k tuition and the hassle of co-op for no advantage, and often some disadvantages.
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My 2 cents; I would definitely pick Queens over AFM-FM.

It's not worth paying the tuition if you don't even have equal access to CA Training Office jobs.
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A photo of AgriGen AgriGen

@caveman wrote

@AgriGen wrote

I would personally take queens commerece. I was in co-op (not AFM) and eventually left it. Its great for certain majors, but is it a deal breaker if your not in co-op? Certainly not... you can always network/apply to jobs. The queens commerce gives you a lot more opportunity in the future in my opinion though and probably better lifestyle. Cant go wrong either way though both great programs. Have fun!




@immaculatedx wrote
Agree mostly. With the culture and how things work in the industry business/finance world, co-op really doesn't help that much.



This is mostly true, but just want to point out that for some people co-op is a godsend (especially for the first co-op term). It forces you to look for a job (some people will just choose to head back to their part-time job for the summer and stay within their comfort territory). There are listing on the co-op site that you don't have to go searching for. There are all of the resume critiquing, mock interviews, networking sessions and recruiting information nights, and all of that good stuff. So for many people without that they'd never find a job during summers. There's also the benefit of co-op sequencing: try finding accounting placements during the summer (especially in smaller cities) if you're a middling student who's scared of networking and has zero work experience- it's not going to happen. Much better during tax season (and you get worked harder and get to do more important stuff). That's probably one of the few industries where the sequencing really matters.

But yeah, co-op is definitely useless for a lot of people (aside from sequencing). I know I'm going to end up hating PD and paying the co-op fees. I also know that I don't really need the co-op listings in order to find a job. By next year, I'll have held two paid internships in a related field, one unpaid co-op and some part-time jobs. My marks are fine, I don't have troubles networking, so I don't feel the need to pay 600 bucks or whatever it is to do some PD stuff. And the end of workterm report or whatever it's called sounds like a pain.



I have to say co-op can make finding the first few jobs easier. But if you are in queens commerce you should be able to just as easily find a job with equal effort. I find most of co-ops soft services such as resume critiquing to be terrible. Actually more harmful than good. The PD courses and required work reports are another annoyance. Do not get me started on how bad the UI for jobmine is.

If you go to queens commerce are you stuck with fall/winter sequences? Can people just take school off for internships in the fall/winter? I know in a lot of universities you can do this with very little downside.

I am not in AFM but there are A LOT of jobs that are not posted on the co-op website. IMO the majority of your job search in co-op should be for jobs not posted on the waterloo job board (jobmine). I unfortunately only realized this after my 4th year looking for a full-time job.
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[quote=AgriGen]
I have to say co-op can make finding the first few jobs easier.[/QUOTE]
Yep, that would be the benefit to any co-op program really. For accounting especially, once you get that first job, usually firms are willing to bring you back. It's very common for an accounting co-op student to spend 4 workterms with the same employer, while that's pretty rare in engineering/science/arts (or even finance).


@AgriGen wrote
I find most of co-ops soft services such as resume critiquing to be terrible. Actually more harmful than good. The PD courses and required work reports are another annoyance. Do not get me started on how bad the UI for jobmine is.


Well if you're in AFM, you'd get the SAF resume critiquing (which I hear is pretty good) and they have their own PD stuff (not really affiliated with the CECS).

I've heard lots of complaining about the PD courses and work reports. And yes, I've used JobMine to look at stuff, and I hate it. I could only imagine using it to actually apply and rank and stuff.

[quote=AgriGen]If you go to queens commerce are you stuck with fall/winter sequences? Can people just take school off for internships in the fall/winter? I know in a lot of universities you can do this with very little downside.[/QUOTE]
As far as I know, you're basically stuck. It's really only accounting where it makes a big difference though. You may be able to take off to do an internship, but you'd probably want a full-year one (or 8-month at least) as you can't mess up your sequencing because a lot of the upper-year courses are only available in one of the terms.
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A photo of SkylarNoeL SkylarNoeL
Reincarnating an old thread.

Would you recommend not using Jobmine altogether if you have good marks and were active in your first year in terms clubs and stuff and instead applying externally? I heard that once you're matched up with a job on Jobmine you were forced to take it or fail your co-op work term, and other scarily strict rules like that.

Is Jobmine more of a convenience sort of thing, or does it improve your chances of getting a job with a certain employer better than if you had applied externally?
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@SkylarNoeL wrote
Reincarnating an old thread.

Would you recommend not using Jobmine altogether if you have good marks and were active in your first year in terms clubs and stuff and instead applying externally? I heard that once you're matched up with a job on Jobmine you were forced to take it or fail your co-op work term, and other scarily strict rules like that.

Is Jobmine more of a convenience sort of thing, or does it improve your chances of getting a job with a certain employer better than if you had applied externally?


Definitely use JobMine. There's a lot of great jobs on there. If you're in PA, you have the Big 4 jobs listed there. If you're in FM, you have the big 5 banks and some of the other great companies or firms hiring for business/finance jobs. It definitely benefits you to apply from it.

JobMine does kind of suck in a way, but it's not too bad. If you don't want a position, then don't apply to it! You can rank employers, so it's not too bad. If you get ranked as a 1 by an employer, all you have to do is rank it a 1 and you have the job. Otherwise if you find you don't like an employer, rank it low and the chances of you getting it are pretty slim.

After your first co-op term in some areas the employer will just ask you to come back. There's also a chance you can network and get an employer (that you know does not recruit on JobMine) to agree to hire you for the term prior to the co-op process. Then you don't have to worry about attending interviews and ranking and having to choose a job because it is mandatory. And I also believe there is a way you can apply to decline a job you applied to. I forget what it's called.
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A photo of SkylarNoeL SkylarNoeL
So essentially it's a matter of applying to the best jobs which you think you're qualified for and have a competitive chance of landing?

Is Jobmine more useful to CA or BF co-op students? Also is it possible for BF co-op students to land a CATO co-op job in their first co-op work term? (assuming it's difficult to network when you've never "entered" the network to begin with)


And I also believe there is a way you can apply to decline a job you applied to. I forget what it's called.



I'm told it's called "failing." :bounce:

Oh and I'm told Jobmine resumes are scripted in HTML. Worth spending some time to learn how to make a really nice looking resume with HTML? Not fancy or tacky, but more sophisticated and sleek than

Name

List
List
List
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@SkylarNoeL wrote
So essentially it's a matter of applying to the best jobs which you think you're qualified for and have a competitive chance of landing?


Well Waterloo Co-op & Career Services recommends you apply to 50 jobs (you have 50 ongoing applications) your first term. I'm personally not going to spend the time applying to that many (I would rather focus on a smaller number). Apply to the jobs you want. If you don't want to work at a small firm in Hamilton, don't apply there! If you'd rather work there than nowhere, then go for it. If you're confident you'll get something, you might be fine to apply to less.


@SkylarNoeL wrote

Is Jobmine more useful to CA or BF co-op students? Also is it possible for BF co-op students to land a CATO co-op job in their first co-op work term? (assuming it's difficult to network when you've never "entered" the network to begin with)


It's pretty useful to both, but CA (which includes Math/CA and Biotech/CA) students get access to the CA jobs on JobMine plus all of the other jobs (which includes the Business & Finance jobs). In that way I guess CA benefits a little bit more maybe, or just have an advantage in that way.


@SylarNoeL wrote


And I also believe there is a way you can apply to decline a job you applied to. I forget what it's called.



I'm told it's called "failing." :bounce:


No there's some fancy term. I read it in the Tatham Centre. You can submit an application that has your reason for why you don't want to follow through with the application and then you can terminate the application. I'm not sure what the criteria is for determining who gets approved, but it is there.


@SylarNoeL wrote

Oh and I'm told Jobmine resumes are scripted in HTML. Worth spending some time to learn how to make a really nice looking resume with HTML? Not fancy or tacky, but more sophisticated and sleek than

Name

List
List
List


Yes it's HTML. Just find someone in your residence/building that is in CS or engineering and get them to help you. It's not too bad to do though.
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